Curse

Knight O Cydonia · Jul 01, 2008, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raccoon

I don't think any of the devs have even played a Mesmer before. We need more healing and defensive skills, not to mention ones that have the fast casting attribute. Only 7 skills in that one, half of which are elites anyway. Put back Energy Surge to the way it was as well, you made it essentially useless alongside its non elite counter part energy burn.

I don't agree with any of this im afraid

Sorry to take the post off on a mesmery tangent. I just think the original Luxon / Sunspear skills, and subsequant title based skills are terrible planning if they were just going to split PvE and PvP a year later. Instead of having the split as their last resort, it may have been better being their first.

Phoenix Tears · Jul 01, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I've a better idea:

(1)

Kick out the Paragon Class completely and put it only in again , when Anet has given that class a much better Concept as a unique Hunter Class (what would also fit alot more and better to the African Culture of NF).

Paragons are the most retardest Wannabe-Profession beneath Dervishs, and those 2 missconcepted professions completly ruin the good flair of the other 8 professions, which have concepts, that fir to the game and doesn't let them look like some Wannabe- 3 in 1 Professions.

After the Reconcept of paragons, the Class should look then more like this:

(Hunter)

[P]Sixth Sense
The Primary Attribute Sixth Sense for the Hunter will increase for every Point you have in it the Chance to dodge physical Attacks by 1,5%. (R16 = 24% chance to dodge physical attacks.) Every 3 points the amount of Energy healed when dodgign a physical Attack will be increased by 2. This Energy heal can happen only maximum 3 Times per 15 seconds.
Includes also Skills to detect layed down Traps and to deactivate them, before they can deal damage.

This Attribute will contain Self Buff Skills to increase Critical Hit rates, Attack Damage, Movement Speed ect.

Great Weapon Mastery
Weapon Attribute 1 *Short Range 2H Weapons (Sword/Axe)*
Slash Damage

Chakram Mastery
Weapon Mastery 2 (will include also Boomerang Skins) *Far Ranged both handed 1H Weapons* (like Daggers, but only ranged)
Slash/Blunt Damage (Boomerangs)

Spear Mastery
Weapon Mastery 3 (Short/Mid Range 2H Weapon)
Piercing Damage

Hunter's Instinct
Self Heal Skill Attribute as also Self Buffs and Trap Skills, which are more specialized on single targets, than to damage multiple targets like Ranger Traps, but therefore are naturally more powerful due to Armor penetration bonis for example.
***
***
AL varies between 70 and 80 in regard of which Insignias you wear, but stand would be 70.

Energy stays 30 and Regeneration stays >>. So Hunter's would be similar concepted as Warriors with 5 Attributes having a wide variety of Weapons able to use, but be more mid to far ranged hybrids in Combat in first line.
That concept would fit to that class for NF alot better and with great Weapon Mastery it would give Warriors also the opportuniy to become kind of Berserkers, without that Berserkers need to be implemented as own class, so its a win/win only for both professions.
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(2)

Let the Skills, how they are, and just don't use them, if you don't like them

Just again +1 Ursan QQ... when will this perma QQ finally stop and people will learn to accept that skill how it is. Nobody ever forces you to use ursan Blessing, just play with your god damn GUILD MEMBERS that have the same opinion like you and you will have never problems in finding people for the Elite areas to play them without bear power or any other pve only skills -.-
Thats way this game is still called "GUILD WARS", because you play with other people of your same GUILD.
People bitch ever about, how dumb PUG's are, so why the **** do so much people make a ****** mess about it, what other people use for skills to play the game, how they want to play it.

Stop dictating other peoples, how they have to play the game!!!!
Guild Wars is also made for casual gameers, not only for lifeless basement dwellers of Hardcore Gamers and Ursan Blessing is Anets (i must admit) cheap solution to make the game more casual gamer friendly, so that these type of players will have also the chance to get one day things like the FoW Armor or to complete the Elite Areas in a normal time zone window, which a casual gamer can afford !!! and not that it takes for everythign ever like 3-4+ hours to do something, that is being called an Elite Area.

With Ursan Blessing and Consumeables as good party you can do the areas in like 1-2 hours or fasters, step by step if you don't make a FR and thats good for casual gamers.

But selfish players which think every only first on their own profit will never understand this -.-

Same counts for the non imbalanced Synergy of...

(3)

...Sabway.

Quote:

Modified the functionality of Soul Reaping to include the additional effect "For each point in Soul Reaping, you experience 2% less effectiveness from skills attributed to your secondary profession."

Thats the point, where I believe, that you must have lost completely your mind >.> LOL

However, i've absolutely nothign against the points of giving us finally 7 Heroes possible and that Necros should receive for PvE an increased Limit for summoning minions. NOT endless, but it should be at least 20 !!
1 Minion per level of your Character is fair and good, anythign else is just retarded crap that we got thx to PvP like ever -.-
***
***

The rest is ok XD

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Stop dictating other peoples, how they have to play the game!!!!
Guild Wars is also made for casual gameers, not only for lifeless basement dwellers of Hardcore Gamers and Ursan Blessing is Anets (i must admit) cheap solution to make the game more casual gamer friendly, so that these type of players will have also the chance to get one day things like the FoW Armor or to complete the Elite Areas in a normal time zone window, which a casual gamer can afford !!! and not that it takes for everythign ever like 3-4+ hours to do something, that is being called an Elite Area.

With Ursan Blessing and Consumeables as good party you can do the areas in like 1-2 hours or fasters, step by step if you don't make a FR and thats good for casual gamers.

Quoted for truth , if you don't like PvE , play PvP , if don't like neither , then don't play GW. Let other people play and have fun.

makosi · Jul 01, 2008, 12:19 PM // 12:19

N/Rt and N/Mo healers aren't invincible and they address the problem that ANet forgot to give Rits and Monks adequate energy management and over-priced skills in the fast-paced PvE environment. Even removing the the soul reaping benefit from minions wouldn't hinder N/Rt healers because the rate of deaths in PvE means that there's a constant influx of energy from monsters.

Turbobusa · Jul 01, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

I've a better idea:

which is to give a class an inherent energy management attribute that is active all the time, gives you a good amount of defense.
Ho yeah and it already contains self buffs, so no need to invest in an otherwise useless attribute (read, the present motivation line).

Anything wrong with that?

kvndoom · Jul 01, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Ideas I really like:

remove SR timer, and energy gain from minions, at the same time. Makes sense.

Scale loot up with bigger parties instead of down with smaller parties. That idea alone is more intelligent than probably anything Anet has ever done for PVE.

(haven't read everything yet, just skimming at work)

Phoenix Tears · Jul 01, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

which is to give a class an inherent energy management attribute that is active all the time, gives you a good amount of defense.
Ho yeah and it already contains self buffs, so no need to invest in an otherwise useless attribute (read, the present motivation line).

Anything wrong with that?

The current inherent effect of leadership is not better. There you have also permantent energy management and all you need to do is using Shouts or Chants all the time. and you get the energy for every ally of yours, so the larger your group, so better the energy that you get back up to the point, that your Shouts chants will never cost energy, because you get it all the tiem instantly back or even more energy back, than the shout/chant had cost. and best is that Shouts/Chants are not stripable too yet.

More balanced would have been, when you get the energy only, when chants end. This way the inherent effect would have a balanced limitation.

About my idea for the primary iherent effect of my reconcepted paragons as Hunters...
uhm, if 1,5% per point is too much, its no problem to decrease the % to 1% per point or to increase the %, but to increase for example to increasign caps to "per 2 Attribute Points" to lower for example the maximum % possible from 24 to 16-20 or so.

But I think my idea is balanced enough, because it has 2 Limitations.

1. Its based on %, so also on Luck on only the logical theory would say, that you would receive at 24% (R16) every 4th physical hit energy through dodging it.

2. it has the same energy limitation, as Soul Reaping, so you can receive withing 15 seconds only max 3x the energy bonus, after that comes nothing, until 15 seconds are over and you can then receive for the next 15 seconds again 3x energy ect. pp.
This limits drastically the energy bonus rate and you will not receive permanently energy when dodging physical attacks.
So when you dodge a 4+th time an attack within 15 seconds, you will receive no energy.

Plus also the inherent effect is unique, no class yet has an effect, thats about dodging attacks.

Sab · Jul 01, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

* Minion deaths no longer trigger Soul Reaping.
* Removed the Soul Reaping timer.
* Modified the functionality of Soul Reaping to include the additional effect "For each point in Soul Reaping, you experience 2% less effectiveness from skills attributed to your secondary profession."
* The maximum minions possible for a Necromancer to raise is still limited by their Death Magic attribute, however, Necromancers who achieve 16 Death Magic may raise an unlimited number of minions.
* Minions in PvE no longer experience accelerating health degeneration over time, nor any natural health degeneration of any kind.

I'm not sure if this is the best approach.

The SS Necro and the N/Rt healer are self-sufficient. That is to say, they will work with or without minions feeding them energy (Signet of Lost Souls + Soul Reaping). As such, we can assume that they will receive no real change from a nerf to the minion engine.

However, in the interest of toning down N/Rts, implementing a hard change to secondary skills isn't a good solution. The problem is that Soul Reaping feeds it too much energy, even more so than if a Rit brought Offering of Spirit and ran the same template. This is an issue of SR significantly outperforming an elite e-management skill, a decent one at that. It's better to have this addressed than adding a unintuitive change that solves one issue then brings up another - that being Necros are discouraged from bringing secondary skills at all. Inter-class builds are healthy for the game, and the few abuses of this mechanic (like the N/Rt) should be toned down without collateral damage.

N/Rts also bring up some other problems that aren't immediately obvious. A large part of why N/Rts are a problem is that Monk heroes can't manage energy. The WoH hybrid template is stronger than any Necro healer, and a decent human player with WoH will outperform any human or a hero Necro healer. If the N/Rts are gone, Monk heroes will still overheal and be bad at prots. An analogy would be like nerfing Searing Flames because heroes can't play Mind Blast. Just as it's better if the AI for MB were improved, it would be better if the AI for Monks were improved.

As for Minion Bombers and Minion Masters in general, another solution would be for minions to trigger SR only if the minion belonged to you. This would get rid of minion engines while maintaining the viability of MMs in as few changes as possible. While removing minion decay is understandable, the request to also remove the minion cap is less reasonable. Logically, by removing the minion cap you'd want enormous minion armies or else it would be easier just to increase the cap to, say, 16. However, large minion armies were somewhat kept in check with decay, and with that gone as well, it seems like an overbuff to MMs when they are currently already decent, and would be decent still with your changes to SR.

With all that said, there seems to be a thought among Necros that they should be able to spam a bar full of 10-15 energy skills with no energy management beyond SR. This passive source of energy has always given far too much for what you put in. Encouraging active sources would be a good idea, like Signet of Lost Souls, which favours awareness and timing. This would be a more interesting solution than simply reverting SR back to roughly where it was.

Crom The Pale · Jul 01, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Unfortunately there are far to many flaws in the PvE balance of GW to fix at this point, hence GW2 is being made.

Every profession requires better internal balance currently to make use of all attributes and to allow for greater variety of builds.

The monsters we face require a better balance of skills to create a need for balanced parties.

The goals in PvE Missions/Quests/Dungeons require a greater amount of variety so that we are not simply creating a "kill all monsters" party for everything in GW.

Much as I love GW, there is no quick fix for the problems that currently exist.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Sha Noran , the change to ursan will do the same as removing it , promote class discrimination , the armor and health buff was trying to bring classes on the same level. Other blessings are ok The change to SY! is just killing paragons , and not warriors. Other changes are ok with me.

If Ursan was added to prevent discrimination, it would put classes at a set health + armor level and not be upgradeable through a title grind. Not to mention I've already heard of instances where people have been taking Warrior only Ursans, so it doesn't look like it's working too well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

One more thing , I bought GW because they advertised it that with minimal skill you can get through pve , but PvP is where the real action happens (a guy on a TV show about games said that). Right now it seems that people want the opposite.

Problem is that we used to have the opposite, both a skillful game in PvE and /P.

pumpkin pie · Jul 01, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I rather Arena-Net take out all PvE only skills lol, i don't use them, and stop trying to make changes to necromancer!

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I rather Arena-Net take out all PvE only skills lol, i don't use them

So , everyone else shouldn't use them too?

@Bryant Again : pve is skillful until you beat it on NM , in HM it's the same , only more stupid and grindy. GW1 will never be and most likely never was a skillful game because of the enemy AI , and no skill balance can change that. The most likely reason more experienced players think the game was more skillful in the past is because they weren't as skilled at the game as they are now.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

@Bryant Again : pve is skillful until you beat it on NM , in HM it's the same , only more stupid and grindy. GW1 will never be and most likely never was a skillful game because of the enemy AI , and no skill balance can change that.

Well, I can tell you that allowing skills that make players as strong as the monsters was not a good direction.

And since you added this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

The most likely reason more experienced players think the game was more skillful in the past is because they weren't as skilled at the game as they are now.

Agreed if PvE skills + consumables did not exist.

DonCorleoneCS · Jul 01, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I agree with some of what you've said, however I think ursan needs to be nerfed a little harder than just the 20 armor. I'd go with adding a conditional to the KD and a longer recharge on strike.

I don't really think nerfing sabway would do a whole lot, I've run with people who think it's the best thing going and get rolled. It isn't effective in all areas and can be countered quite easily in HM PvE.

No need to nerf the imbagon too badly just change the amount of armor gained and make the duration a set time of 3 seconds. It works great but it's not nearly as effective with just H/H. It's much more of a guild/friend's list type of build.

Nerfing tank and spank would require hitting so many skills, there's also nothing really imba about it imo. If you're worried about people only wanting to use SF eles as opposed to other classes then you're probably not playing with very good people.

Most of all, just get rid of consumables.

pumpkin pie · Jul 01, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

kostolomac, i am not sure why you ask me that. lol

i said i don't mind pve skills being remove from the game because I don't use them as oppose to making changes to necromancer.

necromancer is fine as it is now, is my view. Just becasue most players wants to use PvE skills, my necromancer gets change all the time is actually very unfair.

Alex the Great · Jul 01, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

i think the sabway ones are retarded, everything else is a great idea.

i mean really? lowering effectivness of secondary skills is just silly, plus, emanagement would be hard on any MM using higher energy minions.

sy nerf is good, it is much harder to maintain as a warrior primary, and it is the only party wide utility they bring as uposed to the imbagon

Wildi · Jul 01, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

5. Minimal Man Farming Effectiveness

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

*Drops now scale depending on the number of human players in your party; more human players means more drops total in any given zone.

..

yes but if you really want to make party play more interesting and rewarding then you have to look at the drops, in gw every boss drops the same boring crap green, in "another game" you can get 200-400 different greens/blues with random stats from a single boss which makes farming with friends more interesing than just going for the same green over and over again

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

snip.

Skill changes didn't "Disturb" PvE. Anyone who truly believed that it affected them went onto forums and expressed they are bothered about it. Skill balances didn't do anything drastic to PvE.

As for PvE skills, some, such as the Blessing skills (Which go against this game's design in the first place), and severely overpowered skills beyond stupidity (Ursan Blessing, Save Yourselves are two big ones), basically made the PvE part of the game more of a cakewalk than it ever was.

As for Ursan "Removing" discrimination, I think I should just quote Bryant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

If Ursan was added to prevent discrimination, it would put classes at a set health + armor level and not be upgradeable through a title grind. Not to mention I've already heard of instances where people have been taking Warrior only Ursans, so it doesn't look like it's working too well.

Now, onto the OP...

I agree wholeheartedly with the Paragon change. Nothing to add or argue against.

The blessing skills should be killed, or should give an effect to your bar. It should leave the pre-made bar to the quests, much like Wurms.

As for Sabway; removing the ability to gain energy from minions will kill MM's energy-wise. I suggest that it is changed to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul Reaping

For every rank in Soul Reaping, you gain energy from enemies that die within range equal to your Soul Reaping rank. Minions only give energy to it's owner and spirits don't give energy.

As for making heroes be able to be up to 7, I wholeheartedly agree.

Tank&Spank, I agree.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

kostolomac, i am not sure why you ask me that. lol

I understood that as a wish to take all pve skills out of the game , I don't use them myself too much (only "Finish Him!" , UB is boring) , but I wouldn't want them to be nerfed or removed.

pumpkin pie · Jul 01, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

i don't either, but if its a choice between changing necromancer, i choose removing pve skills

btw: what the is a con?